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Knightmare
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United Kingdom
4459 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:41:02
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Is it me, or do bad designs tend to receive more feedback and comments than good designs?
There seems to be this disturbing new trend where we're chastising the so-called garbage and ignoring great work just because we know it's good. I used to teach and I could tell you from experience that positive reinforcement is psychologically beneficial. A pat on the back or a "good job" and you're more likely to work harder, redouble your efforts and increase participation.
I took a look at some of the site's old design entries from 2004 and 2005 and the number of people who commented in a positive fashion was tremendous compared to what I'm seeing on S7 now.
Not only that, but outside of the forums our main source of social interaction is through our comments. A strong community is founded on consistent and positive communication. Just look at any successful forum - users participate in a mutually beneficial manner. Even criticism should offer something positive, if only to reinforce successful participation in the community.
Try to remember S7 and BattleTech is a hobby and it exists solely for fun. People like to have fun and typically enjoy what they're doing even more sharing with others.
I know this should probably be classified as a rant, but I think this "trend" is kinda sad really. I just keep seeing the same four names over and over again...and wonder why some of the "old hands" don't show anymore. A lot of them, like truegrit have moved on to better places like CBT.com (where participation and social interaction is at its peak.) Others simply lost interest in S7 as the strong community bonds exemplified in 2005 disappeared.
I'm partially responsible for that last part. Over the years my participation here waxed and waned with my personal projects elsewhere, but when I needed a serious pick-me-up I could always turn here.
At any rate, all I'm saying is that it'd be nice to see the old levels of positive social reinforcement of the past. I believe it would strengthen the community, member participation and enhance the user experience.
*Hops off Soap Box*
Thank you for your time.
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Samak
Lieutenant
View S7 Profile
United States
350 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 10:26:45
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KM I agree with your post, and miss many of those that where here when I first started. Ein and I often helped eachother test new designs and used the others in fluff.
I do think that one reason for more negative feedback on certain designs is that it is an attempt to "help". Everyone here has their own idea what is needed to be a good 'Mech. Sometimes people tend to tune out certain critics if they don't agree.
"It doesn't move 8/12 so Ice isn't going to like it. It isn't a Star League or Robe 'Mech so KM is going to like it. No JJ so Ein is out. An XL and no PPC on an assault, Samak already is writing me hate mail". But if you get 5 reviews saying the same thing maybe its not a good idea to put the ammo in the head. Or make a 1/2 light so you can mount twin heavy gauss rifles.
Now I also think that if you tell the same designer the same thing 12 times and they still ignore you let it go.
We do need to give positive feedback. I know I like hearing what others have to say about my fluff and designs. Sometimes its har to just write "great fluff, good 'Mech" but I want to make sure I see more.
*off soap box, running away with it to keep it away from others*
Peace through Superior Firepower
Beware of stupid people in large groups
Man only need two tools, WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40, if it does move and it shouldn't use the Duct Tape-Author Unknown, internet wisdom |
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Knightmare
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United Kingdom
4459 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:03:20
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@Samak : This is not directed towards you at all. I'm just thinking about what you said.
I think it'd be nice to see a line of some praise follow on the heels of a line of constructive criticism.
After all, it's not just a design you're commenting on. You're commenting on an individual's personal creativity. These two things are not mutually exclusive or exist in a bubble. Try to remember that next time you comment. Just because you didn't create the design, or agree to ever play with it shouldn't give you carte blanche to trash it. So what if it isn't a completely perfect design or have two pages of fluff? Any explanation should suffice and imperfect designs are often more fun and challenging to play with anyway.
I've also gotten a kick out of reading the comments from so-called "rules experts" (which I will never claim to be) in relation to the number of designs in their armory. Honestly, I give more credit to the kid pumping out tons of new stuff because at least he's contributing to BattleTech in his own way with something NEW. Reading these comments is like reading the same stuffy B.S. comments coming from old historians. They haven't contributed to the field in decades, yet it's THEIR opinion that counts. I don't know if they just like hearing themselves talk, or just can't contribute themselves.
It irritates me because I remember users like GhostBear, who came to S7 and originally posted very simplistic work, but he was an eager hobbyist and community participant. With only a little bit of help and some encouragement he was pumping out some seriously awesome stuff. Sure we'll have to deal with users like Chip, or Recoil (or whatever his name is), who will argue kicking and screaming about their work.
So what?
Get burned once and just move on. New users come to this site every day....it'd just be nice if we could retain a few and turn'em into active, helpful participants that foster personal creativity rather than ruin it.
/End Rant
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Edited by - Knightmare on 07/29/2010 11:05:43 |
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Ice Hellion
Premier Member
France
4606 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Samak
"It doesn't move 8/12 so Ice isn't going to like it.
You are wrong.
My favourite speed is 7/11 
I do agree with you guys and I am also a bit lazy sometimes when I see a good design as I just write down a simple "good work".
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LostInSpace
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United States
1667 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:14:02
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+1 on everything said here. I couldn't have said it better.
quote:
Originally posted by Samak
Now I also think that if you tell the same designer the same thing 12 times and they still ignore you let it go.
This is key. Kit really hit the nail on the head here (and I'm pretty sure this was the reason that he left):
http://www.solaris7.com/Armory/ArmoryInfo.asp?ID=2141
"Uh.,.. this was made by Clan Hot Dog for te uberness" - Major Tom
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Klinktastic
Sergeant
View S7 Profile
United States
61 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:18:11
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I think it's partially because it's easier to write out why something is "not as good" than to nit pick little things on a solid design. I definitely like being able to rate using the 1-5 system, so even if I don't have much to say, I can still give a big thumbs up for a good design.
For one, I like to hear all sorts of critical and non-critical feedback about my designs. For my campaign, I post up my potential refits just to see what people think. If it sucks, or there's a canon mech out there already that does what I'm trying to do better, than that's what I want to know.
I definitely think some of the commenting could be done in a more positive manner, but obviously over the internet, and in written word, it is hard to come off sounding anything but harsh...unless you really try.
I think its good that this is being brought up though and should strengthen an already strong community even more.
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LostInSpace
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United States
1667 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Klinktastic
I think it's partially because it's easier to write out why something is "not as good" than to nit pick little things on a solid design. I definitely like being able to rate using the 1-5 system, so even if I don't have much to say, I can still give a big thumbs up for a good design.
Why do you need to nitpick a design? That's one thing I really hate, there's a perfect example of this on one of my newer designs. I ****ing hate having to explain my choices. Why not just take my choices as-is and try to figure out a good reason why I chose those things in the first place? You might learn something new.
NOTE: Klink, this was NOT directed at you, I'm just reacting to the comment. You're a great addition to our community, it's a pleasure to have you around.
"Uh.,.. this was made by Clan Hot Dog for te uberness" - Major Tom
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Knightmare
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United Kingdom
4459 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:28:23
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@Ice - Even a "Good Work" is good! It's positive. Nuff said. 
@Klink - quote:
I definitely think some of the commenting could be done in a more positive manner, but obviously over the internet, and in written word, it is hard to come off sounding anything but harsh...unless you really try.
You hit it. "Unless you try..." Wouldn't it be nice if the same effort people put into bashing or criticizing was put into fostering creativity instead of unloading their personal nonsense?
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Ice Hellion
Premier Member
France
4606 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by LostInSpace
That's one thing I really hate, there's a perfect example of this on one of my newer designs. I ****ing hate having to explain my choices. Why not just take my choices as-is and try to figure out a good reason why I chose those things in the first place? You might learn something new.
That's because you are always ahead of your time
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Knightmare
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United Kingdom
4459 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:39:47
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Wow, I just reread Kit's Armory and I couldn't believe my comment then, let alone now. Seems we keep circling back to this topic. That's sad...
@Ice - I wanted to add, that even if you only care to write "Good Job," rate it. A 5 for a design you like is just as good as a line of praise. It's still positive and reinforcing at the same time.
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Klinktastic
Sergeant
View S7 Profile
United States
61 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 12:16:04
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@LostinSpace - No, I know it wasn't directed at me. I usually equate the "nitpick" in the category of "Did you think of this use for that tonnage?" Sometimes, those "nitpicks" do help refine your design. Numerous times I've revised designs and deleted the old and posted the new based on a few tweaks. But yeah, "nitpicking" for the sake of it, is quite annoying.
@Knightmare - Internet ettiquette is challenging because we've all learned to minimize the use of the english language while online. **** like LOLZ, IMHO, etc makes one sound short and elitist and some internet tough guy. At the same time, I'm on this at work, and I'm not about to type a novel explaining why based on the heat curve of a particular design necessitates the use of standard medium lasers over ERMLs. I would simply say something direct and to the point.
I guess there needs to be a balance of understanding on both sides. If you post, be aware that people are going to critisize the design. At the same token, the commenters should try a little harder to not sounds like an LEET SAUCE online tough guy. That said, I value everyone's opinion and have really enjoyed become a member of this community.
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Edited by - Klinktastic on 07/29/2010 12:18:08 |
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Warhawk
Major
3080 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 13:41:39
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I know that I've been bad at times in this regard at times, but I will say that even the idiocy of Chip/Recoil shouldn't be an excuse for it. I do enjoy getting reviews, even the bad ones, though the good ones give me inspiration to come up with another design. It could easily be that some of us spend a good bit of time coming up with our fluff (I know at times I can spend several hours tracking down facts before using it, or it could just be that I'm busy at work and an idea pops into my head that I need to track down for the same reason) and we tend to expect the same of everyone else on here. I had that problem with Recoil as he would "assume" that we knew his reasoning. Not so, especially if you have to use a review to explain your design, then you didn't write the fluff correctly.
Another of those things that I've come to dislike is the grammar nazis (not blaming anyone really). Its just annoying sometimes if a word gets typed incorrectly or otherwise and that results in a bad review.
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Knightmare
Premier Member
View S7 Profile
United Kingdom
4459 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 14:32:03
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I guess I'm just urging a renewed sense of courtesy and a mutually "supportive" community.
I mean there's a difference between "your hobby" and the "community hobby."
(This is brief stint with GW talking...I know, I know. )
Your hobby is the material you've personally created. You work it for your own personal enjoyment and it should be respected by the community when it's posted, since without it there wouldn't be a "community hobby" - i.e., the interaction we share between one another - to begin with.
They say no man is an island, well guess what? He could be an island if S7 didn't enjoy a review system. Without it you could post a thousand designs for showcase and never once suffer the indignity of hearing a so called "expert" tear them apart. The S7's review system is a privilege. It's a gift to be able to socially interact "on location" (at the design in question.)
Try to remember that and not take it for granted.
Otherwise we'd just be a couple of lonely BattleTech players stuck with whatever community we could muster up in Real Life, at the conventions or some other forum.
One solution I've seen and totally endorse is the copy/refit posting. Don't agree with a design? Think you can do it better? Then stick your neck out and redesign it, re-fluff it and make it your own. Rather than tear and individual's design down with your comments and ruin his hobby, why not create your own? Just give credit where credit is due and smile because in adding your own body of work you've directly contributed to enriching the community hobby.
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Samak
Lieutenant
View S7 Profile
United States
350 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 15:13:53
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I have to echo KM with the copy/refit. I have had a couple designs over the years reworked by another S7 member, and it brings a feeling of pride. Do I always like their redesign? No, but the fact that they used one of mine is a compliment.
I remember when I first started posting designs before the crash I had some truely awful designs and poor fluff. Thanks to people like Ice, KM, Warhawk, Skyhigh and other "Oldtimers" I refined and improved through constructive critisism. Now if they had gone Lewis Black on me I would probably have given up or said deal with it.
Peace through Superior Firepower
Beware of stupid people in large groups
Man only need two tools, WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40, if it does move and it shouldn't use the Duct Tape-Author Unknown, internet wisdom |
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Samak
Lieutenant
View S7 Profile
United States
350 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 15:20:30
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But they worked with me, delt with my sometimes odd view of the world and now I like to think I am a decent writer and designer. Bad reviews help, if they are done nicely
Peace through Superior Firepower
Beware of stupid people in large groups
Man only need two tools, WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40, if it does move and it shouldn't use the Duct Tape-Author Unknown, internet wisdom |
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Warhawk
Major
3080 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 16:40:31
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Even a bad design does deserve some good feedback on how to make the design better. The only problem tends to be those posters who don't care if they make a crap design (Chip and his drivel or the D&D series of late) or have something wrong fluff wise. I do consider that we should all do our best to encourage players with constructive criticism as much as possible to foster a good environment for them to learn more about the hobby that we all have come to love and enjoy.
Unfortunately many seem to have come here thanks to the computer games and don't understand the rules behind the game. Its a bit like trying to build a Space Marine or Necron army without knowing the rules of how 40k is played.
The beatings will continue until MY morale improves.
Knowledge brings fear.
- Mars U.
If guns kill people, then you can blame your pencil for misspelled words.
- Larry the Cable Guy
Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun
Satire is when you make fun of people who are smarter than you.
Irony is when you make fun of people who are richer than you.
Burlesque is when you make fun of people who are smarter and richer than you while taking off your clothes.
- Heard on NPR
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A trend?
